[andy]

ok, so ive decided that its time to split back and shoulders as i feel like the energy is running out before the muscle does if that makes sense, so heres my first idea - feel free to pull to bits lol.

[andy]

4 workouts - frequency still to be decided:

1) legs
Squat
SLDL
Leg press
Calf Raise

2)back
Rack pulls/Partial Deads
Lat Pulldowns
Seated row
Wide grip row

[andy]

3) Shoulders/bi's

Mili Pres
front/side/bent over raises
Biceps (probably bb preacher curls and standing db curls)

4) chest tris

incline press
Dips
db press
cable pushdowns.

apologies for all the posts - it wont scroll down properly lol.

not sure on the shoulder one so open to suggestions?

cheers

[Phill]

What order are you planning the split matey? Stating the obvious here, but my only concern is with over training the muscles used secondary - so bi's when doing back day due to the pulling nature of some exercises and tri's when doing shoulder day due to the pressing movements. You can tell me, as you know yourself better than anyone so you can comment with regards your individual recovery times.

Just a thought pal!

[andy]

Yeah, i am aware that theres going to be a lot of crossover in there and in reality theres no way of splitting it that would get rid of it completely.

my gut says to go with how its laid out now.. which will mean 2 workouts in a row hitting arms and to some degree shoulders in one way or another

the only other option really is back, legs, shoulders/bis, chest/tris so the only crossover comes from shoulders-chest in the form of hitting delts and tris.

id prefer to keep legs first though - just because its easier in the gym as nobody else does legs early in the week (if at all lol).. The only way to know for sure is to try i guess.

[TheCrazyCal]

after some contemplation..

why add volume/frequency when it never worked to get results in the past.

i reckon you should get back to squatting 300+lbs and then re-evaluate.

have some patience.

adding a day or not you still have to refocus a % of youre energy from somewhere else.

if you wanna do 4x a week do it for different reasons.
ie not cos you think youve plateued

[andy]

i dont think ive plateued as such... not as in im incapable of lifting any more anyway.

how do i explain.......? Its like the energy goes before the muscle - does that make sense? So although im capable of lifting more - the energy has ran out first.

which leaves me with 2 options - less volume throughout or less volume, increased frequency.

Im aware that even over a week, there is only so much i can put in but im leaning towards little and often rather than lots and rarely.

[TheCrazyCal]

i know precisely what you mean, i was feeling like this before i started my trt.
i had nothing left after just squats done first exercise.

i`ll try n think on but dont think adding days is answer.

you should be brimming with energy on cycle..
youre not lifting pb`s so why could that be..

thats the answer we need to work out..

then try 4x maybe..

you`d have to separate back n legs more either way.

[andy]

the answer for me (well maybe 80-90%) is diet - im restricting cals still and pushing on.. which obviously isnt a good combo - but id be expecting the tren to help with that to some degree.

Beyond that though, i do believe still that theres a point where splitting stuff up would be of benefit from a growth point of view... and that maybe im getting towards that point.

**edit** Just thinking (and cringing lol), I bet lack of cardio is a factor too...

[TheCrazyCal]

i dont think lack of carbs is a factor.
are you sub 200g?

this isnt the time to think about biceps i`m afraid.. if anything if youre runnoing out of energy i`d take a break AND cut volume to existing routine ans ee if that helps..if it does theres the answer..
you canthen work out how 4x a week might help.

increased fitness will of course help in recovery...

[andy]

sorry dude.. but that just aint happening - i already feel like im wasting gear by cutting for so long and quite franlky reducing volume and running gear constantly would be just plain dumb to me lol.

carbs are around 200g these days yeah.

cals are increasing in a few weeks (slowly) and cycle is changing to something more suited to adding mass.... would anyone really see that as a time to cut volume??

[TheCrazyCal]

so are you running out of energy or have you got plenty left post training?

spell it out to me lol

i feel like the energy is running out before the muscle does if that makes sense, so heres my first idea - feel free to pull to bits

doing my best here lmao but you can see why i`m confused..

[andy]

you're confusing me now! lol

ok, slooowly lol

I have insufficient energy per workout to work the groups effectively as they are...

your solution - do less work.. my solution - split the work up?

i want to put more work into each group.. which to me means that the effected groups need more time to themselves rather than being crammed in with others... so the 4 workout split is born lol.

notice im not saying 4 day split as im not 100% that wouldnt be too much still.... although im interested in finding out.

[TheCrazyCal]

I have insufficient energy per workout to work the groups effectively as they are...

why is that do you think?
you were fine before on this routine.

to me it sounds like your just gonna dilute youre effort with the split.

currently youre training back 2 days on trott and shoulders 2 days on trott.
so if you were to do that split it`d need reordering.

[andy]

how would i be diluting my effort dude?

surely a whole days rest inbetween groups = more to put in?

i agree that the order is a bit out.. but that easy to change.